Regardless of how you feel about Sundin’s refusal to waive his no trade-clause, or whether you believe he was even the best Leaf ever, Mats Sundin deserves your applause during his inevitable honoring during his return to Toronto tonight.
Listen, I’m with a lot of you. I’m very bitter that Sundin stayed in Toronto on the basis that he didn’t want to be a rental player, and ended up becoming one. But let’s not forget all he did for the franchise over the years. Many of his peers have told about his sacrifice and determination while playing for the Leafs. Many of those sacrifices might prove to be surprising to you, and I’m sure there are many more actions Sundin has taken that we don’t appreciate because we’ll never hear of them.
Either way, yes it sucks that he didn’t help the franchise when it needed it most. Yes, it’s awful that he left Toronto the way he did. But let us never forget the excellence he brought to our team over the time he was here. He never bitched, he never complained, and he never backed down from the criticism that was most of the time undeserved from the media and Toronto’s fans.
Don’t get me wrong, I really wish he would’ve waived. I personally think it would have been his most honorable move as a Leaf to move when he least wanted to. And I would have cheered him for it.
But at the end of the day, Sundin did what was within his rights. It’s not his fault that the Leafs have had terrible ownership and management for such a long time. Not many of us would have fallen on their sword the way Mats would have had to do at the deadline, so relax a bit on his return.
Cheer him on his return, and realize what he did for us while he was here. Could he have done more? Of course. But not many would. And that’s why I believe Mats Sundin will never be remembered as the “greatest Leaf ever”. He’s one of them, to be sure, but he will never solidify himself as THE best ever, although he might have if he has only sacrificed himself for the franchise.
February 20, 2009
February 18, 2009
Kaberle is worth it....to trade.
My bias towards Tomas Kaberle needs to be stated right away before this post can go any further.
I am very much biased towards Kaberle. I believe he is too soft. I think his defensive acumen leaves much to be desired. To me, a top defenseman needs to get dirty, be tough, and grind out individual battles in order to help his team win. Kaberle does none of this. This bias likely comes from my father, who I’ve watched hockey with my whole life, and he HATES Kaberle. I used to defend Tomas to him when I was younger, but lately, his hatred has seeped into me. Though I can’t ignore the skill this man possesses in the least, his heart and grit leave much to be desired.
And this is why I think the Leafs need to trade him.
Don’t get me wrong, I think Tomas is insanely skilled. I don’t doubt for a second that he’s among the most skilled defensemen in the league. When you see guys like Boyle, Campbell, Timonen, and even Mark Streit and Ron Hainsey getting the money they sign for, you HAVE to look at Kaberle as a massive bargain. He consistently throws up 50 points a season, and he obviously manufactures an effective power play. When Tomas is out of the lineup, the Leafs clearly suffer. Hell, look at McCabe’s stats playing with Kaberle and when he hasn’t, and its clear Tomas makes the people around him better, at least statistically.
But here is where his value ends. Kaberle will never be the #1 defenseman the Leafs need. He will never be the difference maker in the playoffs. He will never be the key cog in the top 4 that can control the fate of games. And most importantly, he will never provide the massive abstract we call leadership when times are tough with a team. He’s just not that guy.
His skill relates almost directly to the power play, which is nice in and of itself. Power play proficiency in the NHL since the lockout is a HUGE need among all teams. But a power play contributor does not a championship team make.
He would need to be more than that. He would have to shut down the best forwards he faces. He would have to land a body check that changes the tone of a game. He might even have to get into the face of a teammate, or provide some sort of commentary that lights a fire under those he plays with. Tomas, unfortunately, can only provide the aforementioned power play contribution.
As much skill and ability Kaberle is capable of, he is only as valuable as his skill that translates onto the score sheet. Of all of the intangibles us hockey fans love to harp about, Kaberle doesn’t really illustrate any of them. To me, he is a glorified forward who happens to play defense, and if Burke can fetch the return we hope for, god bless Brian.
We will, however, proceed onto the argument that he should be kept. And here are my refutations:
If he’s kept, what is really gained? He has two years left on his contract. So then, what happens? He leaves in 2 years for greener pastures? What does he contribute to a rebuilding team? If you resign him, then what is the cap hit and salary then? It surely won’t be anywhere the $4.25 million he makes now. If anything, Kaberle will become just another massive immovable contract that the Leafs screwed up on, and that’s if he decides to stick around. Trade him now, while his value is highest, and hope for the best, that’s my opinion. Odds are he won’t be around either way when the Buds are ready to contend.
But even if the return isn’t extraordinary, that’s alright with me too. I just hope they get something decent for him, because to me, if and when the Leafs win a championship, I can’t ever see a man like Kaberle leading the way from the defensive end.
We fans should expect, and deserve, better than that.
I am very much biased towards Kaberle. I believe he is too soft. I think his defensive acumen leaves much to be desired. To me, a top defenseman needs to get dirty, be tough, and grind out individual battles in order to help his team win. Kaberle does none of this. This bias likely comes from my father, who I’ve watched hockey with my whole life, and he HATES Kaberle. I used to defend Tomas to him when I was younger, but lately, his hatred has seeped into me. Though I can’t ignore the skill this man possesses in the least, his heart and grit leave much to be desired.
And this is why I think the Leafs need to trade him.
Don’t get me wrong, I think Tomas is insanely skilled. I don’t doubt for a second that he’s among the most skilled defensemen in the league. When you see guys like Boyle, Campbell, Timonen, and even Mark Streit and Ron Hainsey getting the money they sign for, you HAVE to look at Kaberle as a massive bargain. He consistently throws up 50 points a season, and he obviously manufactures an effective power play. When Tomas is out of the lineup, the Leafs clearly suffer. Hell, look at McCabe’s stats playing with Kaberle and when he hasn’t, and its clear Tomas makes the people around him better, at least statistically.
But here is where his value ends. Kaberle will never be the #1 defenseman the Leafs need. He will never be the difference maker in the playoffs. He will never be the key cog in the top 4 that can control the fate of games. And most importantly, he will never provide the massive abstract we call leadership when times are tough with a team. He’s just not that guy.
His skill relates almost directly to the power play, which is nice in and of itself. Power play proficiency in the NHL since the lockout is a HUGE need among all teams. But a power play contributor does not a championship team make.
He would need to be more than that. He would have to shut down the best forwards he faces. He would have to land a body check that changes the tone of a game. He might even have to get into the face of a teammate, or provide some sort of commentary that lights a fire under those he plays with. Tomas, unfortunately, can only provide the aforementioned power play contribution.
As much skill and ability Kaberle is capable of, he is only as valuable as his skill that translates onto the score sheet. Of all of the intangibles us hockey fans love to harp about, Kaberle doesn’t really illustrate any of them. To me, he is a glorified forward who happens to play defense, and if Burke can fetch the return we hope for, god bless Brian.
We will, however, proceed onto the argument that he should be kept. And here are my refutations:
If he’s kept, what is really gained? He has two years left on his contract. So then, what happens? He leaves in 2 years for greener pastures? What does he contribute to a rebuilding team? If you resign him, then what is the cap hit and salary then? It surely won’t be anywhere the $4.25 million he makes now. If anything, Kaberle will become just another massive immovable contract that the Leafs screwed up on, and that’s if he decides to stick around. Trade him now, while his value is highest, and hope for the best, that’s my opinion. Odds are he won’t be around either way when the Buds are ready to contend.
But even if the return isn’t extraordinary, that’s alright with me too. I just hope they get something decent for him, because to me, if and when the Leafs win a championship, I can’t ever see a man like Kaberle leading the way from the defensive end.
We fans should expect, and deserve, better than that.
February 16, 2009
Is he really worth it?
I must say, the return for an aged and diminished Mathieu Schneider wasn’t, in my mind, as high as what the Atlanta Thrashers garnered from the Canadiens. Whether Gainey was desperate to make a move or not is unclear, this trade will only help increase the value of the likes of Kaberle and Kubina. At least, that’s the thinking.
I think the return for these two defensemen will be more in line with what was acquired by trading of similar players over the last five years or so. Darren Dreger of TSN lists the asking price as “An early 20’s impact roster player, a top prospect, and a first round pick”. God, I hope so, because history has shown that trades such as these don’t exactly pan out that well.
Let’s have a look at trades for defensemen, notably those for 1 single player (i.e. Kaberle) and possibly picks as well, the return it merited, and we’ll keep it exclusive to post-lockout seasons.
Andrej Meszaros for D Filip Kuba, D Alex Picard, 1st Round Pick
Dan Boyle (& Brad Lukowich) for D Matt Carle, D Ty Wishart, 1st & 4th Round Picks
Marek Zidlicky for RW Ryan Jones, 2nd Round Pick
Lubomir Visnovsky for C Jarret Stoll, D Matt Greene
Marc-Andre Bergeron for 3rd Round Pick
Brad Stuart for 2nd & 4th Round Picks
Hal Gill for 2nd & 5th Round Picks
Brian Campbell (& 7th Rd. Pick) for F Steve Bernier, 1st Round Pick
M-A Bergeron (& 3rd Rd. Pick) for D Denis Grebeshkov
Shane O’Brien (& 3rd Rd. Pick) for Gerald Coleman, 1st Round Pick
Alexei Zhitnik for Braydon Coburn
Craig Rivet (& 5th Rd. Pick) for Josh Gorges, 1st Round Pick
Brent Sopel for 2nd Round Pick
Dennis Wideman for Brad Boyes
Eric Cairns for 6th Round Pick
Dick Tarnstrom for F Jani Rita, D Cory Cross
Jaroslav Spacek for F Tony Salmelainen
Luke Richardson for 4th Round Pick
Ken Klee for F Aleksader Suglobov
Brad Lukowich for 3rd Round Pick
Denis Gauthier for F Josh Gratton, 2nd Round Pick, 2nd Round Pick
Sandis Ozolinsh for 3rd Round Pick
Brendan Witt for F Kris Beech, 1st Round Pick
Cory Cross for 4th Round Pick
Eric Weinrich for D Tomas Mojzis, 3rd Round Pick
Ric Jackman for Petr Taticek
Chris Pronger for F J. Lupul, D Ladislav Smid, (2) 1st Rd. Picks, 2nd Rd. Pick
Alexei Zhitnik for D Freddy Meyer, 3rd Round Pick
Danny Markov for 3rd Round Pick
Brent Sopel for 3rd Round Pick
Chris Pronger for D Eric Brewer, D Jeff Woywitka, D Doug Lynch
Toni Lydman for 3rd Round Pick
Andy Hilbert for 5th Round Pick
Now obviously the majority of these players are not of the same caliber of a Tomas Kaberle, and the relatively low cost his contract will pose to a team, both in real dollars and the cap, can’t be ignored as positive factors for the Leafs. Most notably, the deals for Campbell, Boyle, Meszaros, Pronger and possibly Rivet would make the best comparables in what Kaberle will fetch.
The Boyle and Meszaros deals are still too fresh to determine the value received, but I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that Campbell and Pronger didn’t exactly provide full value. I think the package that is coming is going to be much like the return seen in the Pronger to Anaheim deal, and even then, what do the Oilers really have to show for it? Sure, Smid is a nice prospect, and Lupul never really fit with their team, but it’s not exactly a rebuild jump starter type package is it? And I don’t believe many of us would put Kaberle into the same class as a Chris Pronger.
I really hope I’m wrong here. I really hope the increased parity adds to the desperation a lot of GMs feel at this time of year, and I really hope that Kaberle’s availability, along with not much else to choose from, contributes to Burke robbing someone blind. But if you look back at the recent history, for Burke to work out a deal that provides the type of haul that Dreger and many Leaf fans expect, he’ll be the first one to make it happen.
I think the return for these two defensemen will be more in line with what was acquired by trading of similar players over the last five years or so. Darren Dreger of TSN lists the asking price as “An early 20’s impact roster player, a top prospect, and a first round pick”. God, I hope so, because history has shown that trades such as these don’t exactly pan out that well.
Let’s have a look at trades for defensemen, notably those for 1 single player (i.e. Kaberle) and possibly picks as well, the return it merited, and we’ll keep it exclusive to post-lockout seasons.
Andrej Meszaros for D Filip Kuba, D Alex Picard, 1st Round Pick
Dan Boyle (& Brad Lukowich) for D Matt Carle, D Ty Wishart, 1st & 4th Round Picks
Marek Zidlicky for RW Ryan Jones, 2nd Round Pick
Lubomir Visnovsky for C Jarret Stoll, D Matt Greene
Marc-Andre Bergeron for 3rd Round Pick
Brad Stuart for 2nd & 4th Round Picks
Hal Gill for 2nd & 5th Round Picks
Brian Campbell (& 7th Rd. Pick) for F Steve Bernier, 1st Round Pick
M-A Bergeron (& 3rd Rd. Pick) for D Denis Grebeshkov
Shane O’Brien (& 3rd Rd. Pick) for Gerald Coleman, 1st Round Pick
Alexei Zhitnik for Braydon Coburn
Craig Rivet (& 5th Rd. Pick) for Josh Gorges, 1st Round Pick
Brent Sopel for 2nd Round Pick
Dennis Wideman for Brad Boyes
Eric Cairns for 6th Round Pick
Dick Tarnstrom for F Jani Rita, D Cory Cross
Jaroslav Spacek for F Tony Salmelainen
Luke Richardson for 4th Round Pick
Ken Klee for F Aleksader Suglobov
Brad Lukowich for 3rd Round Pick
Denis Gauthier for F Josh Gratton, 2nd Round Pick, 2nd Round Pick
Sandis Ozolinsh for 3rd Round Pick
Brendan Witt for F Kris Beech, 1st Round Pick
Cory Cross for 4th Round Pick
Eric Weinrich for D Tomas Mojzis, 3rd Round Pick
Ric Jackman for Petr Taticek
Chris Pronger for F J. Lupul, D Ladislav Smid, (2) 1st Rd. Picks, 2nd Rd. Pick
Alexei Zhitnik for D Freddy Meyer, 3rd Round Pick
Danny Markov for 3rd Round Pick
Brent Sopel for 3rd Round Pick
Chris Pronger for D Eric Brewer, D Jeff Woywitka, D Doug Lynch
Toni Lydman for 3rd Round Pick
Andy Hilbert for 5th Round Pick
Now obviously the majority of these players are not of the same caliber of a Tomas Kaberle, and the relatively low cost his contract will pose to a team, both in real dollars and the cap, can’t be ignored as positive factors for the Leafs. Most notably, the deals for Campbell, Boyle, Meszaros, Pronger and possibly Rivet would make the best comparables in what Kaberle will fetch.
The Boyle and Meszaros deals are still too fresh to determine the value received, but I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that Campbell and Pronger didn’t exactly provide full value. I think the package that is coming is going to be much like the return seen in the Pronger to Anaheim deal, and even then, what do the Oilers really have to show for it? Sure, Smid is a nice prospect, and Lupul never really fit with their team, but it’s not exactly a rebuild jump starter type package is it? And I don’t believe many of us would put Kaberle into the same class as a Chris Pronger.
I really hope I’m wrong here. I really hope the increased parity adds to the desperation a lot of GMs feel at this time of year, and I really hope that Kaberle’s availability, along with not much else to choose from, contributes to Burke robbing someone blind. But if you look back at the recent history, for Burke to work out a deal that provides the type of haul that Dreger and many Leaf fans expect, he’ll be the first one to make it happen.
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